The Sam Acho Podcast

Sam Acho: Welcome to the Sam
Acho Podcast, where we go first,

we grow hope, we give space.

We talk about faith, family, football,
and finances, and we do that with

people from all around the world.

And today we have a very, very special
guest and cliff, as he usually does,

would love for you to introduce our guest.

Clif Marshall: Sam, we have
a legend on the show today.

Mack Brown, who's been a head college
football coach at Texas, North Carolina.

Is with us.

He most recently coached at the University
of North Carolina during the 2024 season.

Coach Brown is known for leading
the Tar Heels to their all

time record number of wins.

Coach Brown is perhaps more well
known for his tenure in Austin, Texas.

Where he coached the Texas Longhorns
from 1998 until 2013, winning a

national championship in 2005.

What makes this show so special today is
that Coach Brown recruited and coached

Sam Ocho, our host Sam, went on to be
an All-American defensive end in 2010

for the Longhorns, and then was an NFL
draft pick to the Arizona Cardinals.

So we have a reunion of
sorts today on the show.

We're so glad that you're here.

Mack Brown: Thank you, cliff.

You also didn't add that he won
the Campbell Award as the smartest

player in college football that
year, so that's pretty cool too.

When you're an all American, you
win all these awards, you're an

NFL player, but you are also the
smartest player in college football.

So I didn't talk to Sam about anything
except football 'cause he was too smart.

I didn't wanna get into any
conversations with him of that

because I knew I couldn't stay up.

Clif Marshall: Oh, well, I could tell
you Coach Sam was on time this morning.

He was pumped up, ready to go,
setting up straight in his chair.

The respect he has for
you is just incredible.

And I wanna start to show off today
by asking Sam what is the impact that

Coach Brown has had on you, not only as
a football player, but also as a man?

Sam Acho: Yeah.

Well, coach, I'm gonna
speak to you directly.

The impact that you've had on me.

It be put into words, cliff.

observation that when you got on the
call, I mean, we do these podcasts all

the time, but you got on the call and
all of a sudden, not only am I sitting

up straight and trying to make sure
I'm correct, but I'm making sure that

I'm not only on time, but I'm early.

I'm making sure you're
getting everything you need.

I try to do this for everyone, but there's
a different level of respect and even

as I'm, even as we were talking before
we press record, the biggest correlation

I can make for you Coach Brown is.

I remember getting a chance a few
years back to meet, uh, president

Bush and President Clinton at an event
in Arizona, and I'd meet people from

all around the world and, you know,
in sports and media and business.

And, and I remember when President
Clinton walked into the room,

there was this aura about him.

It was this feel of, man, this is
like royalty is what it felt like.

Not even going back to when we
first met Coach, but even on this

podcast as we're talking, I'm like,
man, this is, this is royalty.

There's this aura about you.

And I know that doesn't
just happen overnight.

Uh, it's this, it's just who you are.

And so it's no wonder that you've
won everywhere you've been,

but it's not just on the field.

Every, anyone who speaks about you
or who knows that I know you or

knows that I, I played for you.

They say the same things about you.

They say, man, he's a man of integrity.

He's a man of character.

He's a man of his word.

And those are phrases that are
rarely used for people in general,

but also people of your stature.

And so the impact that you've had on
me, coach Brown, is that you've shown

me, you've modeled to me specifically
what it means not just to be a man.

Not just to be a leader, not just to be a
husband, not just to be a father, but to

be whole, to be a, a person of integrity.

And so I just wanted to make sure
that you heard that from me because

as I said, I'm trying to put it into
words, but if anyone's watching the

podcast, there's, they're seeing I'm
sitting a little bit different than

I usually do, you know, and I'm,

Clif Marshall: Yeah.

Sam Acho: and uh, I might be talking a
little bit different than I usually do.

I'm just honored coach,
that you would say yes.

Mack Brown: Well, thank you Sam.

That's the reason you coach right there
is because if you can have a small

influence on somebody's life, um, that
that's, that's the reason you coach.

That's it.

And, and you can't do it without winning.

'cause you don't get to stay.

But the winning is just a byproduct
of what you can give to people.

And you know, I had, uh, Sam did one of
our games this year, cliff last year.

And, um, I had about 15 pictures up
on the wall in my office, and the

two OCHO brothers were in there.

So not

only have I had an influence on
their lives, they've had a tremendous

influence on my life, going back
to their mom and dad as well.

I.

And, and it's just, uh, you're so blessed
as a coach because you get to meet so

many families and really and truly, you
get to choose the ones that you think

should join your family in coaching.

And Sally and I were very,
very careful of who we chose.

And Sam would tell you, I sat
in some offices and rooms and

homes and said, you know what?

I don't think I would come if I was you.

And here's why.

Because I thought it
was very important that.

I had been recruiting for 47 years.

That family had been in recruiting
for six months, so I knew more

about the process than they did.

So I always tried to look at
the Acho family and say, if

I was them, where would I go?

And why?

Because if I wouldn't come to Texas,
then they're gonna realize that

at some point it's not gonna work.

So I always wanted guys that
should be there and they should

be there for the right reasons.

And, and that's because it, it, uh,
that's the reason it worked for so many

years in, in my estimation, and people
were always taken back when you'd be so

honest with 'em and say, um, I'd always
say, say, what are you looking for?

And then he'd say, well, I'm, he, he was
looking at Virginia, he was looking at USC

and, uh, I, I said, you love your family.

You need to stay close to home.

You need to, you, you're smart, you're
gonna make a great living, uh, in the

state of Texas when you get through with
all this stuff because that really, that,

that was his name, image, and likeness.

Back then, we weren't giving money for
name, image, and likeness, but you were

getting credibility, meeting boosters,
uh, making your brand in your own state.

And he did that in so many different ways.

Now when Sam Acho walks down the streets
in Austin, Texas, people know who he is.

And if he'd been at Virginia or USC,
it probably wouldn't be the same 'cause

he was gonna move back to Dallas or
Austin when he got through playing.

So I think Sam, more than anything
else that that's what I, I've

enjoyed so much is helping families
make the right decision for them.

If it was the right decision for them to
come, it was the right decision for us.

But if it was the wrong decision
for them to come, then it

didn't work for us either.

And so many coaches say, I gotta get him.

He's a five star.

He's a, uh, and in it really and truly,
it's who you get more than what you get.

And I think that's the, the
difference in recruiting.

Sam Acho: Coach, I did want to ask
one question, and I know Cliff had

a lot of questions, but these are
questions I've never been able to ask.

Uh, why did you recruit me and my family?

Mack Brown: Number one, you've got
incredible integrity, and I love your dad.

Your dad was direct.

He knew what he wanted.

He knew what he wanted for you guys.

So many parents will sit there
and say, oh, it's his decision.

He's 17.

It's not his decision.

He's not ready to make decisions.

Yet the parents have
to help make decisions.

Your dad was gonna help you make that
decision because he loved you so much

and he knew what was best for you,
and he was gonna let you feel like you

had done it, but he was gonna do it.

And, and, uh, that that
was a big part of it.

The other thing is that when you
recruit, you've gotta be smart enough.

To take a, take a guy
who's gonna get better.

You were a guy who was talented, but
you didn't have all the tools yet.

You were gonna work really hard.

You were gonna stay out of trouble.

You were gonna eat right, you
were gonna gain more weight, you

were gonna get more strength.

You were gonna be a guy that would finish
a lot better than you started, and you've

gotta be careful sometimes, especially
when some of these high school programs

are so well coached and their strength
programs are so good that the big guy

is a better player as a freshman than
he is gonna be when he gets to college.

And, and you, you, he
kinda outgrows himself.

So you, you've gotta get the guy with
potential that you can develop, and I

thought you were perfect in, in that area.

Plus the

other thing, Sam, and I'm I'm
sorry, cliff, let me, this

other thing.

Sally and I went back
and looked at everybody.

We'd recruited for 36 years, and
we found that when there was a 3.0

or above, especially at a
good school like yours, St.

Mark's.

That there was about a 99% chance
of success, and we found that

core GPA was one of the most
important indicators for success.

And then you would ask why?

Well, it meant you were at home at night.

It meant you were studying.

It meant you cared about your
grades and you were gonna care

about 'em when you got there.

So that meant you weren't out using
drugs, you weren't out drunk, or you

couldn't have kept the grade point up.

And the second thing we noticed
is if it was a high SAT and a low

GPA, then he is probably lazy.

'cause he is really smartening
read, but he didn't study.

But if it's a high GPA and a lower test
score, it probably meant he just didn't

do all the SAT testing when he was younger
and he didn't learn to read those tests.

'cause they're, they're different.

So.

So you were also.

Uh, the perfect quote profile
for what we were looking for

with our family and we liked you.

I also learned that if you, if you don't
like somebody, they're not gonna like you.

And if in that fourth quarter
I needed somebody who wanted to

fight for me, I needed somebody
who wanted to fight for himself.

And if you didn't like me, if we didn't
like each other, if we weren't all

in, then this thing just didn't work.

And, and we had to be aligned and I
was aligned with you and your family.

You had to have a strategic plan.

I knew you had one, and, and then
you had to have a family together

to make that plan go through.

And, and that all worked for us.

Clif Marshall: Coach Brown, I have a, um,
a kind of a reminder in my office here.

Um.

Regard to coaching and it says,
A good coach can change a game.

A great coach can change a life.

And I was blessed to train Sam Acho for
the NFL combine, but I was also able to

train another a, a number of other Texas
Longhorn players like Jackson, Jeff Coat.

Jordan Hicks.

I was on the Bengal Strength staff and
was able to train guys like Cedric Benson,

and all of them talked so very highly of
the impact that you had on their life.

I want to ask you, uh, you know, Jordan
Hicks, Jackson, Jeff Coat, the Acho

Brothers, you were able to recruit
those guys in high school and then train

them throughout their college career?

not necessarily the case now
with college football, with the

NIL and the transfer portal.

I kind of want to get your thoughts on
the current state of college football.

Mack Brown: Cliff, the, the wonderful
thing about what we had in those years.

Or that I saw Jackson the
other night and he's wonderful.

I saw, um, Jordan the other
night, and he's wonderful.

I see Sam all the time 'cause
we had a family and these

guys are gonna be best friends for the
rest of their lives and they're gonna

be best man in each other's wedding.

And they're, they're gonna
call when they need help.

And, and if you get a, a, a group
like North Carolina supposedly had

67 players leave since January.

That means you've got 67 new players.

Colorado had a complete change
of roster when Dion Sanders came.

Um, so when you, Ole Miss
had 38 transfers last year.

So when you start looking at this,
we're not going to have the Sam Achos

that come in with his freshman class
and stay together and grow together

and win together and graduate together.

So I, I don't like that near as well.

We're, we're, um, we've, we've really
gotta look at the transfer portal because

Sam's dad wouldn't have let him transfer.

But a lot of families, if they, they
just want 'em to play and they want 'em

to start, they want 'em be in the NFL.

So if it's not working as a freshman,
which most freshmen do not play a lot.

Um, then they wanna transfer.

Well, if you transfer once you've got
a 63% chance of graduating, because

of the courses that will not transfer.

So if you transfer 2, 3, 4, or five
times, you're not gonna graduate.

If you don't graduate, you're
probably gonna make more money.

You can't get a job.

You're not going to have a community of
boosters around you that respected what

you did and know you and want to hire you
when you graduate 'cause you've had five

different ones or four different schools.

And then I'm really worried about
mental health when we get out because

you got more money to come to school
than you're making when you get out.

You may, you can't get a job, you
may be homeless, you're sure not

gonna get a job where you can make
the amount of money you're going to

expect after you are given money.

And given money really coming
into school without earning it.

Um, so I I, we, we need to have some
urgency, cliff, and we gotta have some

things change and change quickly for the,
the benefits and mental health to me, of

college football players and families.

We've just, we've, we've
gotta have some things change.

Sam Acho: Coach, you talked about mental
health, uh, and I'm, I'm jumping in again.

People don't often see.

They hear about the impact, they don't see
the impact that a coach has on a player.

I got a chance to not only hear about it
and see it, I'm not gonna say the player's

name, but a, a teammate of, of mine.

We were at Texas, uh, from a, uh,
uh, essentially his dad was like

the biggest drug dealer in town.

His uncle was the second
biggest, like that whole deal.

And I didn't know any of this
until I'm in the film room one day.

I believe I was a senior or a junior.

This guy was a freshman.

I'm in the, I'm just in the room,
meeting room by myself watching tape.

This guy happens to hop in.

We have a conversation and he
comes to tell me that, oh yeah,

every morning at, I think it's
6:00 AM correct me if I'm wrong.

He's like, I go and I meet with Coach
Brown and we just talk about life

coach.

This guy's family was, like,
I said, we talked about it.

Dad was, I mean, you could
explain the story, but why?

Why that?

Why do you do that part of it?

Mack Brown: Sam, I, I,
uh, I love my grandfather.

He was the, my, my mentor and he
was the, uh, winningest football

coach, high school football coach
in Middle Tennessee history.

At that time, our high school
stadiums named after him, Eddie Jelly

Watson, he was the first to integrate
schools in the state of Tennessee.

So he got it long before
anybody should get it.

So I went to school with guys of color
and didn't even think anything about it.

Um, so when I got into coaching, I.

The influence that a Steve Sloan, who
was at, uh, Florida State is my offensive

coordinator, a Bill Parcells, who was the
defensive coordinator at Florida State,

and then head coach of the Cowboys.

My grandfather, my dad was a coach.

The influence that those guys had on me.

And then older coaches
have been so good to me.

Coach Royal was like
an older brother to me.

Coach Bowden, coach Paterno, uh, coach
Beckler, coach Holts, those guys, I

could call them, they'd call me right
back and, and answer my questions.

So they had such an influence on me then
I felt like I needed to be that guy.

So you, you think about
why you're coaching.

And, and people would say,
well, he's a player's coach.

Well, I hope that's what,
that's what this is all about.

And then Sam, as we get older, we,
we have so many, uh, players say,

remember when you grabbed me as a
sophomore and you, you jumped me for

this and.

Some of it I remember, some of it
I don't, I probably didn't jump

him as much as he felt like I
was jumping him, but that's okay.

Uh, but, but when I get sit down
with you guys and realize that a

coach has to be really careful what
he says to a player because the

player listens and it does matter.

And then at North Carolina, we, um, we
were there for a month, month and a half.

They'd won three games two
years before we got there.

They'd won two games a year before.

So they're really struggling and they
didn't have a lot of self-confidence.

And one of the guys in the first team
meeting said, tell us how you win.

I thought, oh gosh, we don't
have time for that today.

Um, so we were in the
mountains of North Carolina.

We had a friend that worked.

For us around our house.

And his son worked for our, some, his son
was a freshman at, at Appalachian State.

He committed suicide and it scared us.

We ran back to the team immediately.

We knew we didn't know him very well.

We knew they weren't at a great
place with our confidence.

And we had a team meeting and
Sally and I sat there and you

know how involved Sally is?

It's a she, she loves the players.

And we sat there and said, okay, I'm
not a psychiatrist, I'm not a doctor.

So I, I don't know enough about
suicide and what I'm supposed

to say and all those things.

I do know that it really
hurts your parents and it's

selfish if you take your life.

I do know it really hurts your
friends and your teammates.

So if anybody in here is struggling, man,
don't, let's, let's just talk about it.

It's not worth it.

We're, it'll be okay.

We all go up and down and we
get in some tough places and

we need to work ourselves out.

And I said, uh.

So the, let's come on man.

Let, let's talk to a friend, talk
to me, talk to a counselor, anybody,

and it'll be, it'll be private.

So we go upstairs and a young
man named Jake Lawler that the

story was done by ESPN, so he
doesn't mind me using his name.

He came upstairs and sat there with
Sally and I, and he said I was on a

bridge a couple of nights ago and I
was, I was gonna jump and I need help.

Clif Marshall: Hmm.

Mack Brown: He got help now, he's
a great screenwriter for Disney.

Uh, he's doing so well.

So the, you've gotta be careful, Sam.

You can not only help change lives,
but you can help save lives as a coach.

And I'm constantly preaching to coaches.

When you walk by a young guy and
he looks down or he doesn't look

at you, he's screaming for help.

I.

So when you say something to a
player, you better be really, really

careful that that not only do you mean
it, but you can follow up with it.

So one of the things we did at North
Carolina better than Texas, 'cause the

setup wasn't that way, we ate lunch
every day with our players at North

Carolina and Sally would go sit with
one and I would sit with another group

and, and then if, if, like if you were
walking by and I'd say, Sam, how are you?

And you said, I'm okay.

Then I knew I better go sit down.

Something was wrong.

And I would say, okay, that's not
your, your normal facial expression.

Um, help me man, what's wrong?

And he'd usually say, I
lost a friend last night.

I had a friend get shot.

I had, I had a friend die in a car wreck.

My mom's got cancer.

And then you say, okay,
let's, let's get some help.

Let, let's get, uh, mental
health counseling today.

We, it's, there's nothing wrong with that.

And we had Dwight Hollier, who was
a great linebacker in the NFL that

played for us at North Carolina,
uh, was our mental health counselor.

So he would come and eat lunch.

He'd be at every practice.

So we, we wanted guys
around just we can help.

And it's, uh, when I was growing up, you
weren't supposed to talk to counselors.

You were soft.

You were weak.

and and now it's okay.

If you need help, reach out and get help.

But, uh, that's the thing, Sam and
Cliff more than anything else, is that

I graded myself on how the players
did after they got outta school.

We said it was a 40 year
decision, it's not a four.

And we said, if we buy into this and you,
you come to our school, then your family.

Then we're gonna take care of you
the best we can for the, the rest of

our lives and the rest of your lives.

And that's important.

Now, some of you guys are getting
old enough, it's a 50 year

decision instead of 40, so I
gotta, I gotta keep it going here.

But I think the, the impact of a coach
is, is really how you change lives and

how you possibly save lives, even that
you may not know anything about and,

and how you help young people take
negatives and turn 'em into positives.

This year we had a, um, a very
difficult situation at North Carolina

with a young man named Tylee, Kraft.

And Tylee was in an elevator with
Sally when he was, um, 21 years

old, and he fell and we were scared
and we thought he had back cramps.

That's what they thought.

Well, that night he couldn't sleep.

They took him to the hospital.

He had stage four lung cancer.

So because of great treatment at at UNC
hospitals and, and being around the team.

And he was able to live for
two and a half more years.

But one of the reasons that we
felt like we should stay another

year in coaching, uh, was for him.

'cause we knew it, it, it wasn't going
to end well for him and the team.

And, and what a tough thing.

We lost Cole Pittman many years ago with
a, a truck accident at, at, uh, Texas.

Um, but that, that was in
the spring is really hard.

This was going to be during the season.

So Sally and I stayed and, and we learned
a lot of things from Tylee, um, because

he would come to every practice, he'd be
throwing up after chemo and radiation,

and he would come out and be throwing up
and I'd say, go back to your apartment.

Come on man.

Get some sleep, get some rest.

He said, no, coach.

I need to be around my, my team.

I need to be around my family.

And, and then he would fight.

And then he went from, from working out
to a, a cane, to a wheelchair, to hospice.

And the guys watched him
go through those stages.

And, and that's a, a very
difficult learning situation

when you see somebody your age.

I.

That, that's not gonna make it.

And then guys, we even had it where
we were, it was the Georgia Tech game.

Had a call on Friday night at like
two o'clock in the morning that

said, we don't know that Ali's gonna
make it till the game tomorrow.

The game was at noon.

And I'm thinking, okay, what do you do?

What's best for the team?

Do you cancel a game?

Do do you tell him if he dies tonight?

Um.

Then he, we, we got to the stadium at
10 because he made it through the night.

What if he dies at 10 30?

What if he dies at 11?

Do you still have the game?

Do you tell him?

Do you not tell him?

And he was being honored, his family was
being honored 'cause he was in hospice

at the end of the first quarter and I
was hugging his mom and I could tell she

was crying, so I knew it wasn't good.

Um, so Tylee died during
the second quarter.

And then after the game, we get beat
on the last play of the game, Sam.

It's awful.

We're we're, we're tied.

We drop a touchdown pass, win the game,
then they get the ball back, they hand

it off and go 68 yards on an inside zone
for a touchdown, which cannot happen.

So I'm walking off the field,
we've just lost a game.

And Sally says, she said
Tylee just passed away.

And his mom wants you to tell the team,
she wants you to tell the media and she

wants you to come and see the family.

So as a head coach, your
responsibility is, is not about

that, that last play, which
shouldn't happen, you gotta fix that.

But what do you say to a team?

You just lost a, a devastating
game on the last play of the

game that you shouldn't have.

Oh, by the way, you lost one
of your best friends too.

He passed away during the second quarter.

Then what do you say to the media then
how do you go handle the, the family?

But those are coachee's responsibilities
and a lot of people, you, you, and why I

say that is, is that was such a negative
to lose such a wonderful young person.

He is.

Got a great, great point.

Average.

He was a, a really super person.

He was going to be a starting receiver.

And, and you, you go through all of that
and then at the end you look back and at

the funeral they said a couple of things.

The, the minister said, um, Mitch
Mason, who is our minister, who's doing

a great job and he's got a rare nerve
disease that he's fighting through.

So, um, the, he gets up and says,
okay, you, you don't know how

much time you've got, none of you.

So you better enjoy your time.

'cause you control some
things in your life.

You don't control how long you live.

We just saw that.

So you better get up every morning.

You better be grateful
for what you've got.

You better be happy and you better
be giving back to other people.

And the second thing he said, which
made sense, he said, and if you and

your family and your best friends
are healthy, you have no problems

because you go home today and they
say your wife's got a month to live.

You drop all those other problems.

You better be grateful every night when
you go to bed and every morning when you

get up and, and, and pray for health.

And I, I always pray for health
and happiness of my family, my

friends, and all of our players.

I say, God, I know to make 'em
all happy is a little tough.

I, I want health for sure.

I'd like to have happiness, but if
they're healthy, they're probably gonna

be happy and we can help 'em be happy.

But let's, let's make
sure they're healthy.

So you, you have to take things
as a coach and, and learn, but you

have to take negatives and, and
try to turn 'em into a positive.

And I learned so much
from Cole Pittman's Loss.

I still do.

There's a book.

His dad, mark did, there's a movie
coming out now that they're working on.

I learned so much from Tylee.

He, he, he said at the end,
the last thing he said to the

team was, man, keep swinging.

Keep swinging.

So every time I think about
something negative in my life,

I said, keep swinging, man.

'cause I can see Tylee smiling.

So some people can live for 85
years and not impact people's lives.

Tylee lived for 23 and he had a
huge influence on so many people,

in fact, in the entire state.

And I think that Cliff is what
coaching's about more than anything else.

Clif Marshall: I couldn't agree more.

Coach, I hear you talking and I just
hear you talking now that you kind of

coached with an eternal perspective.

And what I've learned being a strength
and conditioning coach for 25 years

is that results are temporary,
but relationships are eternal.

And I just talking on the
show here, we, we oftentimes

talk to our guests about pain.

How pain can have purpose and as painful
as these tragic deaths were, I can see

that there's purpose in it and the way
that these athletes have impacted others.

And now the way as a coach, you
impacted your athletes at both

Texas and also North Carolina.

Um, I did want to ask you, coach,
um, you had great success in college.

You won a national championship at Texas.

You go to North Carolina, you
become the all time winningest coach

in the football team's history.

Did you ever think of moving on to the
NFL and coaching professional football?

I.

Mack Brown: Cliff I did, and I had
a couple opportunities and, and

when I really thought about it, I
thought my gift is relationships.

My gift is to take the 17,
18-year-old and help him grow.

I didn't know about free agency.

I didn't know about the NFLI had Dan
Hennings, a great friend of mine and I

coached with him at, at Florida State.

He, he was the head coach of the Falcons
and maybe the, the Chargers, and he

was the head coach at Boston College.

And he said, once,
don't coach in the pros.

'cause you can't afford to live in the
same neighborhood with a quarterback.

And, and it's getting to be
that way in college now, so

that's a little bit tougher too.

With, with, with, with NIL.

Uh, Vince Young told me the other
day, coach, if we had NIL I'd

still be playing college football.

And I think that's true.

He still would and he'd be making
more than he would in the pros.

Um, but, but I just felt like
that God put me in a place

to, to coach college football.

And that's who I was and what I
was, and I knew what I was doing.

I knew what I wanted and I didn't
want to go to a place where I

wasn't sure what was going on.

And, and I went, Sam knows
I wanted to be in charge.

And in the NFL, as the owner in charge,
as the general manager in charge,

are you in charge of everything?

I didn't want scouts
telling me who to recruit.

I didn't want draft choices being
picked that maybe I didn't want.

So I just felt like Cliff, that
I, I wasn't, I, I always tried to

evaluate was I best for them too.

So for that reason, I felt
like I wasn't best for the NFL

because I wasn't bought in.

I really didn't grow up with it.

I, I didn't know enough about it.

I was, I was gonna be the rookie.

And that's why so many college coaches
that go to the NFLI think don't make

it 'cause there's such a learning
curve and you don't have much time.

And, and that was the, uh, one of
the, the more important things.

And, and, um, I, I talked to a
couple of people about head coaching

jobs and, uh, was offered one
and just said, no, not our deal.

We're, we're.

We we're college coaches, and
Sally was very involved and,

um, it, it was perfect for us.

And, uh, I had a wonderful 36
years as a head coach and, and

wouldn't trade it for anything.

Sam Acho: Mm.

Coach you as, as I'm listening and I
know you, but a lot of people who are

listening probably know you as well,
but you, you talk about Sally a lot, and

I want to tell a story, and
then I'll ask a question.

I asked you.

Why me and my family?

Well, the reason I chose Texas,
I was getting recruited by, you

know, a bunch of different schools,
but every coach that I met, they

always talk about, oh, we're family.

We're a family, family atmosphere,
family, this family that,

and I visited all

Mack Brown: out.

You liked out Outgrow and Pete Carol.

I know.

I, I remember.

I remember sitting,

Sam Acho: But I said, no, I,

this is true.

This is true.

I was, I was this close to going
to USCI was this close to going to

Virginia, but then I ended up visiting
Texas and when I visited Austin Real,

actually, before I go there, coach,
you were, I need to hear this story.

Um, so was getting recruited by a bunch
of different schools and you were.

I think you, were you on like the one
vacation that you take O over the year?

And mind you, I'm like,
okay, where's Texas?

Where's Texas?

And then finally, I think you ended
your vacation early because some of the

coaches were like, Hey, Sam is thinking
about going to the to these other places.

But when I went to go and visit, not
only was I met, you know, people who

know me and they know I'm Nigerian.

Right?

So you had Brian Orakpo, a Nigerian
player, Chris ob, who I saw a couple

weeks ago, meet me and greet me.

Then I walked into your
office and it was you.

It was my mom, my dad, me and my brother.

But it was you and it was your wife,
Sally, sitting down in your office.

Every other place I've been to, they
talk about family, but none of them

ever had their family with them.

You asked why I committed to Texas because
when you said something, you backed it up.

You meant it, and so.

All that being said, my question is,
what does Sally Brown mean to you?

Mack Brown: Um, Sally's been
everything to, to me and our program.

And, um, I was married
18 years, got a divorce.

Uh, the girls, I, I met Sally a year and
a half later and the girls lived with us

halftime and they were her girls then.

Uh, she had two boys.

They became my sons.

Um, 'cause we were the
ver Reverse Brady Bunch.

Sally was, uh, she had a, uh,
architectural design degree from Cal.

She'd never seen a
football game when we met.

She had no interest.

In fact, she said, I
don't care about football.

Then she realized when you
lose, you do care about football

'cause you're miserable.

The players are miserable.

She said, Ooh, I get it.

We need to win.

And that's a big part of this.

Um, but I always felt like that players'
moms are really important to 'em.

And that if you're going to have a
family, there need to be ladies around.

And all of the assistant coaches',
wives needed to be involved.

They need to be around,
they need to be at practice.

And that's why I also said that, um,
I, I don't want cussing at practice.

I don't want screaming and
demeaning players at practice.

'cause we got ladies
there and we got children.

I wanted the children in the, in
the, um, in the office because

the coaches are gone so much.

I still wanted them to be able
to be a father and, and be

able to, uh, have a family.

So Sally decided, Sam, that she
would come to every practice.

I.

She could see me and the players.

She would eat lunch with me every day
because, uh, that way I would have to

get out of the office and we could sit
and visit on things we needed to do.

And then she, she did not care
about athletics, but she started

playing golf because I played golf
and she wanted to play with me.

I felt like that she has a,
a great perspective away from

football about people and life.

So she would go sit.

If you were struggling, I'd say Go,
go find out what's wrong with Sam.

Sam's got his head down and she would,
she, she'd say, you sit down with a guy

and he's eating, he'll spill his guts.

Uh, 'cause he'll, he'll say anything.

So Sally would come back with information
or then she'd come in and say, well

this player doesn't have enough
money for his insurance on his car.

I said, he just bought a Range
Rover, so don't talk to me about

he don't have enough money.

Um, so, uh, Sally has been a vital part
of, of our, our team, our family, our

wins, and, um, I mean, she, she was so
passionate with Tylee through the whole I.

The, the entire sickness of two and
a half years that that family became

a member of our family or vice versa.

and and it, it, um, um, it's really hard
emotionally, you, the older you get when

you lose a game, you hate it more for the
players 'cause they're working so hard.

And especially one that dropped a pass or.

Or fumble the ball or miss the tackle.

Um, you hate it so much for them that
it, it, uh, it makes it more difficult

to coach because you are emotionally
invested in every player that you have.

And the other thing I hated Cliff
and Sam is that you, when you've got

120 players and only 11 can play,
everybody's working hard and some

have more talent than others, but
some just aren't gonna get to play.

And I hated that for them.

Uh, the other thing, I hated it if
one of 'em got in trouble because it

changed the course of his life and he
was young enough, he probably didn't

realize that, but that would be on
his record for the rest of his life.

And the third thing is,
uh, I got hurt a lot.

I had two knee operations, so, uh, I
hate it when a guy got hurt because

I could see that just took him.

That just took him right, right out of
a, a place to be and have success and

have a chance to, um, have his dream
and his life, and it changed his dream.

So those were things that
were important to me.

Clif Marshall: Coach Brown, I gotta
ask you, you've spent your entire life.

Football.

Right.

And you've coached, as
you said, for 36 seasons.

does the next chapter look like for you?

Mack Brown: Next chapter for me is,
uh, you, you don't retire, you rewire

and you reinvent yourself every year.

So I love the game of football.

The coaches that coach it
and the players that play it.

So I'm gonna stay involved in, in
somehow, I'm not sure what, um,

I'm probably going to do a podcast.

Vince and I are talking about doing
one about Texas football, past and

present, which will be a little crazy.

Sam, you know how my man is?

He?

He'll, he'll, he'll,
he'll, he'll be out there.

So I, I love Vince.

Um, and I'm, I'm speaking a lot.

I'm traveling a lot.

Um, I'm getting in better shape when
you're, I'll be 74 in August, so I.

Uh, I wanna be around these
grandkids, so I, I don't want to

get outta shape where I can't play
with them and be involved with them.

So, um, I'm having a, uh, you, you
have to reinvent yourself every year.

Anyway, cliff, and I'm having a lot of
fun doing that, trying to figure out,

um, I'm not a person that, that can get
up every day and not have a purpose.

So Sally and I, we have a, a charity
that's been, uh, blessed, uh, by, by.

So many people in Austin that
that's made a lot of money to give

back, to empower kids that need it
in, in a lot of different areas.

They've changed some lives
and saved some lives.

So that's, that's really
a blessing for us.

But I also want to give back to younger
coaches, like the older guys did to me.

So I'm available when they need
something or call me or text

me and they need some help.

I'm, I'm there for them.

So, um, I, I think there's a.

Uh, there's a lot of fun things for me
to do out there, and I've just gotta

figure out which ones I want to do.

And I, I do understand this is the
20th anniversary of the National

Championship game and all those
guys have a podcast, a lunch.

A dinner.

Uh, so I've been doing a whole lot
of that, and I'm not gonna tell,

I'm not gonna tell Sam no ever.

So I'm not going to tell
these guys No, for sure.

But there's so many other people
that are asking me to speak.

We, we've determined that I need to
get 19 different ways, nice ways to

say no, because I can't do it all.

So I gotta, I gotta figure out some notes.

Sam Acho: Oh, I want to go back,
uh, just to two quick things.

When, when we played.

When I was a player for you, there was
a couple things that stood out to me.

We, one of 'em is we, we'd play rice
and you'd have us eat rice before

the game, not just any kind of rice.

It'd be like food, uh, food
coloring, like blue rice.

Before the game you'd have, uh, in the
locker room before every game, you'd

have the fight song of the opposing team.

Going nonstop.

I mean, like, it was, I still
remember, I could still tell you

the, the a and m fight song to this
day because it was just nonstop.

Uh, you before one of our games,
maybe freshman, sophomore year back

when like the Soldier Voice song was
popular, you know, we have these team

meetings, clip, you know, you were a
team meeting, whatever, coach Brown, like

the, the, the, you know, well-respected
coach Brown walks into the meeting

room and doing the Soldier Boy dance.

Where did you, like, where
did you learn how to motivate

people?

Mack Brown: I think Sam,
it was from my grandfather.

But, but again, you've got to, if
guys are uptight, you gotta relax 'em.

If they're flat, you gotta stir 'em up.

Um, but if they're, if when things
are bad, you gotta pick 'em up.

You gotta pick 'em up.

So you had to have some fun and,
and, uh, college football's hard.

People do not realize that
you were like an Olympian.

You worked every day and you had to.

You had to eat right?

You had to sleep, you had to lift weights.

You didn't have the normal
life of a college student, so

we had to add some fun to it.

Now, when I did the Soldier Boy dance,
we got down 35 to 14 to Oklahoma

State starting the fourth quarter.

So I said, I'll never do that again.

That obviously didn't do well, but
we came back and won the game 38, 35.

So it, it was okay, but, um, you all also
needed to see me and, and Sally as people.

You needed to see our coaches as,
as fathers and husbands, and you

need to see us be normal and, and
if, uh, I had to be the bad guy.

So if I was the guy that said, no, no,
no, you can't do this, you can't do that.

You can't have lunch with an agent.

You, you can't be out at
night, you can't do this.

Then all you hear from me are negatives.

So I had to show a, a fun side.

'cause there, there's a fun side there.

And I always ask the coaches to treat
their players like they would want their

son or their daughter to be treated.

And I said, if you do that, we're good.

And then if they would yell at you
and in a, in a demeaning way, I said,

you want your son to be yelled at?

No.

Well, I said cut it then.

Just don't do it because that's,
that's an important part of this.

So, um, I, I think that's the, I'm a
smart Eck, you know that Sam, I love

cutting up, um, uh, I'm a smart Eck
with my friends and they know I'm a

smart Eck, so that doesn't hurt their
feelings when I, I say, uh, something

cute to you, you know, I'm cutting up.

Um, but I, I'm, um, I'm I'm probably
too cautious with the media.

Because that's, you have
to be careful what you say.

'cause when you cut up there, it
becomes something bigger than it is.

I'd get home, Sally would
say, did you say that?

I'd say, yeah.

I was cutting up.

She said, well, they missed that part.

Uh, so I, I think that that's, but
it was fun for me to be me with

you guys and, and that was fun.

Clif Marshall: Coach Brown, I gotta ask
you, uh, you didn't coach just one Acho,

you coached two achos on the same team?

I gotta know, what was it
like coaching two brothers?

Mack Brown: It was a lot of fun.

Even though they're very unique,
they're very different in who they are.

I've got, uh, I lost one younger
brother, but I've got older and younger

brothers and we were all so different.

Um, so I never really even thought
about the two being brothers.

Because they were just uniquely different.

So I, I took them as individuals,
but it was fun because they, they

were gonna do what was right.

Um, Sam was gonna have opinions
and talk to you about it.

Emmanuel was gonna tell
you what they were.

You didn't have to wait and ask.

He, he, he would say, I
don't agree with that.

Sam would say, can we visit?

I mean, so there, there's, there's
differences in their, in their

personalities, but they both were really
unique and wonderful in, in who they are.

And, and, um, cliff, what I've learned
is my life is better because I coached

both of them and because the achos
are in my life, and that's what they,

they've gone back and built a hospital.

And, and I will say I, I coached a lot of
Nigerian and young men, and every one of

'em was well taught, smart, driven, um,
uh, there, there was no screwing around.

They were really serious
about their lives.

And, and that's something every time I
would see a a, a Nigerian player, I said,

okay man, let's go, let's go get him.

'cause he is gonna act right
and he's gonna do right.

And like I said earlier about Sam,
we knew that those players would

improve because it was really, really
important to their families that they

showed pride and did what was right.

We had Ebenezer ban at North Carolina.

He was number one draft choice as
a defensive end at at the Cowboys.

Ebenezer's Dad would call me every
Monday morning for four years and

say, is he acting right, coach?

Is he doing what he's supposed to do?

Is he doing everything right in school?

Never mentioned football.

And I said, yes, sir, Dr.

Dr.

Uh, Eban.

And, and I mean every Monday.

So I would laugh with Ebenezer
and he said, yeah, God, he wears

me out, coach, but that's okay.

That's, uh, he wants me to do well.

And I said, well, you're, you're.

Get the right answers.

Sam Acho: Well coach, uh, we're gonna
let you go, but before we do, uh,

cliff always ends our podcast with
the, what we call the cliff notes,

what he heard and learned from you.

and and so he is gonna share that.

And then I want to, we're gonna allow
you to have, uh, have the last words.

So Cliff, what's the cliff note that
you've learned and heard from Coach Brown?

Clif Marshall: Well, I think
Pastor Billy Graham once said,

a coach will impact more people.

In one year than most
people will in a lifetime.

And Coach Brown, obviously what I
said earlier in the show, my Clif note

is a good coach can change a game.

A great coach can change a life.

And I know you changed Sam Acho's
life and many, many others over

the last 36 years, so I salute you.

Obviously you've won championships.

Um, at both, uh, Texas throughout
your, your time there, but what's

most impressive to me about you,
coach Brown, is the impact that you've

had on the lives of your athletes.

Mack Brown: Thank you,
Clif I, I don't like Sam.

I love Sam and

that, uh, the, the, the
players in my life, uh.

are the reason that I've coached
and I look back and people

say, what, what's your legacy?

My legacy?

I want it to be that I, I did help,
uh, change a life, maybe save a life.

And that these guys, when they send
me their pictures of their family and,

and at Thanksgiving and Father's Day,
it's so fun, uh, just to see them.

And, and when I quit coaching,
it was unbelievable how many

of the guys reached out and I'd
want to cry reading their text.

I'd say, ah, quit that.

I don't wanna hear all that mess.

You, you guys are being too nice.

But I've been so blessed and,
and I've been blessed because

of the Sam Achos of the world.

And when you can take that many
guys, uh, in your life that

matter, that is very, very unusual.

And I can do that.

I'll, I'll close with this.

Coach Royal got dementia.

He went in a, um, in a home
and I would go see him.

He didn't remember that the
stadium was named after him.

He didn't remember that he had
three national championships.

He didn't remember how many games
he won, but when I was in there

seeing him, he knew every ex player's
name that walked in that room.

And that told me that a coach's
life is not about trophies.

It's not about money.

You can't be buried with all those things.

It's about relationships.

And that's kind of what
we started the show with.

And that's what I thought about.

So to me, the importance of my life is the
relationship that I have with these guys.

And, and that's it.

That, that's that, that's what I've
gotten outta coaching and that's

what I'll take to my grave with me.

Sam Acho: Mm.

Well, coach, uh, the Bible talks about
giving honor to whom honor is due.

Um, and I know I'm not the only one who's
giving you honor, everywhere you've been

and everywhere you're going, at least
on this earth and in the life to come.

Um, you will continue to get honor.

You've sown so well into so many people's
lives in ways that people don't even know

about, and my hope and my prayer is that,
as you said, you'll be 74 in August as you

continue to, to, um, age like fine wine.

You would reap the fruit of all those
people who you've sewn into coach.

I mean, I ran into a guy last
couple weeks ago at the UFL.

He's like, oh, coach Brown
coach me at at North Carolina.

Oh man.

Take a picture.

You know?

And, and, and then like, and
then we were texting about him.

He was texting about it, right?

We talk about the Vince Youngs of
the word, we talk about the trophies.

Like I got tr like I'm at
ESPN because I went to Texas.

If I'm just being honest.

You recruited me.

We had success, right?

Went to national championship and like
behind me is trophies, it's helmets

and stuff like it's 'cause of you.

And so coach people talk
about giving flowers.

I just want to give you honor and say
thank you for investing, not just in

me, but in you and into your purpose.

Thank you for not saying I'm gonna go to
the NFL 'cause there's more money or more.

This who said, no, I know who I am.

I know what I'm here for, and
I know why I'm on this earth.

Coach Brown, I appreciate you.

I salute you.

I honor you.

I thank you.

Um, and I do want to end the
podcast, but if you want any last

words, you're free to share 'em.

Mack Brown: Well, thank, thank you, Sam.

Uh, let me say that, uh, uh, I love you.

I love your, your brother, your
family, and um, I'm just so blessed.

And you said you're at ESPN because of
Texas and all those trophies behind you.

Well, I'm in the Hall of Fame
'cause of you and your brother

and a lot of guys like you.

So, uh, every time somebody introduces
me as a Hall of famer, I said, yeah.

And all the players that played for me and
all the coaches that coached with me, man,

we're, we're all in this thing together.

And, um, it, it's, uh, it, it's
just been a, a wonderful run.

And, um, I'm so excited
in college football.

Let me, let me close with this.

College football's gonna be okay.

I'm glad the players are getting paid.

They'd have paid you all but have given
you 150,000 and an annuity on the way

out after graduating as a reward, we
wouldn't even be here, but they waited

way too long to take care of the
players and the parents of the players.

So now the consequences are,
we're in, we're in deep and we're

in trouble, and we're in chaos.

But the game's still wonderful.

The players that are playing
it are still wonderful.

They didn't ask for all this money.

They didn't ask for it.

Now, if it's out there, people
are human, they're gonna ask.

And they're gonna want money,
but it'll all get settled down.

We'll have a lot of smart people get
in a room, they'll figure it out.

But we need to keep having the
influence in, in lives like we had

at Texas, across the country and, and
making sure that the, the, Cliffs and

the Sam, um, you guys have influence
on people's lives moving forward.

And that's really, really important.

And thank you guys for having me on.

Sam Acho: Thank you on behalf of
Hall of Fame coach and my coach, Mack

Brown, cliff Marshall, I'm Sam Mackho.

This is the Sam Mackho Podcast.

Go to sam Mackho.com

to find out not only about
this episode, but also all the

episodes coming moving forward.

Thank You'all and see you soon.